Okerly-dokerly …
Moving on a step from yesterday:
We all know I am my own worst enemy and will probably be too shit-scared to act on any of the excellent advice you put forward.
One of the very few crappy things about living in rural Norfolk is that I cannot take Mark's advice and attend a "singles" cooking evening.
Regrettably we do not have a "singles" culture here.
There are no "singles" bars, no "singles" nights at clubs or restaurants, no "singles" anything.
The lonely hearts column in the local paper is populated exclusively by farmboys wanting to date something that doesn't leave them smelling of bacon; there are no women in there.
At least there are none looking for a man about to turn fifty.
If you're single in Norfolk you are expected to stay that way.
As for the description of my ideal woman; that was purely for laughs (you should know me by now) … my ideal woman is any woman willing to date me, so please don't go on about my expectations being too high.
Plus the self-deprecating thing was pretty facetious, too; I'm a nice guy (well "Dive" isn't, but I am); I have a great job; I'm pretty smart and a good musician and artist and I know it. Plus I can cook and iron … woohoo! But I'm not going to slime my way up to a woman and introduce myself as such. That's just too icky.
Like I said to Lucio in yesterday's comments: I get on great with women (witness the Katie posts) but as soon as it comes to asking one on a date it all falls flat; the closest I ever get is that tired old line that they'd rather have me as a friend.
And so here we come to step two: How to actually find and approach somebody so that I can let them know what a catch I am (I heard that snigger).
The "finding" part of that equation is harder than it looks:
- my circle of friends doesn't include any unattached women;
- the train is full of grumpy old businessmen and the few regular women commuters are vicious harridans (the fact that men outnumber women on the 5:40 AM to London by at least 12 to 1 shows just how far we still have to go to break the glass ceiling … either that or it shows that women don't like getting up early);
- the office is NOT the place for romance … especially as the closest anyone there lives to me is three hours away and he's called Mike, dating him would be impractical and kind of expensive … plus, he's married;
- I can't go out in the evenings as my commuting schedule means I must be in bed by nine so I can get up in the middle of the night and hit the road. The one exception to that is the occasional weekend gig, and …
- women who come up and speak to me after gigs are usually asking for guitar lessons for their kids; as for the others: the type of girl who goes out to clubs and hits on the lead guitarist is not the type of girl that I want anywhere near my life. Not even with rubber gloves on.
We did an experiment a couple of years back when Lynn suggested I go out to a nice country pub and see who I might find.
I went out to the Maltsters at Ranworth (a wonderful pub and restaurant overlooking beautiful Ranworth Broad) and found the barman and two old farmhands playing darts.
I know I live in Deliverance country but that's going a little too far.
What I really need are some practical examples to give me some idea of what to do next.
And this is where you guys come in …
Here's a teensy leetle questionnaire I'd like you to fill in if you'd be so kind:
1) How did you come to first meet your partner (present or favourite; whatever)?
2) Who approached whom, where and how?
3) What did they/you say to kick things off?
You know it's in a good cause.
39 comments:
He he Dive, you do make me giggle. Like the bit about the country pub. I remember this, though it has to be said, you only went once! You really have to pop in now and again, nodding to the regulars and getting known. In this way, is what I meant, you will meet women. You can't expect to saunter into a local country inn and find her there, waiting for you to arrive. It's a gradual thing!
Ok, bearing in mind I'm single, I'll lump together a few past experiences to reply.
1) How did you come to first meet your partner (present or favourite; whatever)?
I've met them (one in each circumstance)through my parents when younger (I'm a nice girl); in the office; online through work contacts; at the country inn (!); one from the past through Friends Reunited (He contacted me, I thought why not - but; disaster. Awful. Don't try it); on a train to London; in an art gallery; acting at amateur dramatics; at uni. Obviously not all these led to anything serious, just really pleasant dates. Some led to relationships.
2) Who approached whom, where and how?
I'm friendly, chatty, smiley I suppose and like to talk. They have approached me, mostly, though I will talk first if the situation arises.
3) What did they/you say to kick things off?
Allo darlin. No, I'm joking. Usually a comment on a current situation i.e. the weather (yep it's British and corny but it's a start), the dog he has with him (if only you could get a dog. That'd do it in a flash. A lot of men compliment from the first. It doesn't go amiss, I must say. I like it. Why not? "You have beautiful hair/You seem very well liked here." I know, I know, it seems so lame written here, but these have been said to me and honestly it's kind of nice to be told. I don't go for stupid chat-up lines. Though they may make me laugh, which could be a start.
Last time was a few weeks ago. I was with friends eating and this chap at the bar kept looking at me every time I turned his way. Smiling openly, then nodding, politely and not too gushing. He asked the barman if I'd like a drink. I refused, but on my way to the loo I made a point of thanking him anyway. He said "I thought what a lovely lady you were, all happy and smiley and thought how nice it would be to talk sometime, that was all." I thanked him again but didn't stay, saying perhaps I'd see him again on another occasion if he is passing.
Perhaps I will, perhaps I won't. Point is, he made the first move and in a tentative, polite but flattering way. I wasn't offended in any way and he wasn't embarrassed that I refused. I don't know if this rambling account helps at all? LOL prob. not.
I suppose above all I like politeness.
p.s. I've added something to yesterday's.
Lynn:
Thank you for this. It is most educational!
I may well act on some of it but I'll allow "Dive" to have his facetious way in answering:
Country pubs: thanks to my decades of gigging (I actually wrote "giggling" there … typo hell strikes again) I am known and made welcome in lots of local pubs, clubs and hotels. It's hard to walk into some of them and not have people rush over to buy me a drink and invite me to join them.
So I do know a lot of women and get on well with them; they just aren't interested in anything more.
The main problem is I don't have any free evenings to go out and do this any more.
Friends Reunited: Holy crap! I had to remove my profile from there after I got stalked by a girl from school. Scary shit. Seriously.
Nobody but the conductor has ever approached me on a train (except the mad pimp woman from the Church of Fornication if you can remember that far back).
No dogs, and definitely no "Allo darling"s. Both HUGE turn-offs.
The last one sounded hopeful but then I thought of my local pubs. If I were to keep glancing at any woman in there I'd probably get dragged outside and beaten up.
Hey ho.
We were both practising Spanish online and he stole my veggie pizza! So I told him off (and asked if he really were vegetarian) and that's how our romance blossomed. Hee hee. And here I am half-way across the world with the best husband in the whole wide world. :D
Thom stole your pizza online?
I totally agree with your description of him. If he weren't married to you I'd probably ask him myself. Hee hee.
I can imagine people rushing over to you in pubs, Dive. So I wonder what happens after that? Do you perhaps issue women with a pocket-pulled sheet of your checklist? Maybe not literally but perhaps you are so hung up on these exacting requirements that it's either daunting or downright insulting to the women!
The evening thing is of course restrictive, but not impossible. So you must be in bed by 9. You have to eat. So you can invite someone to dinner, explaining that it has to be early because of your commute. Or choose an evening before you have a work-from-home day and don't get up quite with the sun.
Eek at your Friends Reunited thing. Mine was pretty ghastly too, but not before I was taken in for a while. Gak as you might say.
Maybe on the train, put the paper or book down for a while, be friendly and see what happens. The paper/book/laptop is a barrier, fun though it is. The Allo Darlin' was of course a joke. If anyone said that to me, I'd assume they'd mistaken me for someone who might be interested.
Avoid getting beaten up by choosing a better class of country inn - said she, sounding like an intolerable snob. I have a point, though.
Usually what happens is people start talking about bands and gigs which bores the hell out of me. Then someone asks me for guitar lessons. I'm quite happy to chat but I've not found anyone in those situations that I actually want to ask on a date.
With the copmmute, there's no telling when I'll get home. If everything runs fairly to time I have JUST enough time to make a very quick, mad-dash dinner, eat it, wash up and go to bed. DEFINITELY not enough time to cook for two and talk.
And I get up at the same time on work from home days, too. If I sleep any later I get a headache; it's the way my body clock works after all these years. I can't change it. So apart from Saturday nights I can't really stay up past nine (and those rare times I stay up on a Saturday I am guaranteed a day of misery and headaches on Sunday to pay for it).
There are no women on the train. At least not any that would want to be with me any more than I would want to be with them. Plus I always get men sitting next to me. A crowded commuter train packed full of annoyed, impatient people is not a conducive atmosphere to chat in even if there were ever an attractive woman to chat to … which there is not.
Lynn: I live in rural Norfolk, surrounded by farming communities. In summer the place is full of tourists and best avoided; in winter there are just miserable knots of farmhands moaning about prices and supermarket cartels. The high class country hotels and inns we have are full of bloody landowners moaning about the same thing; the only women we get in there are intolerable, barking-mad Sloanes "down for the weekend".
Plus of course (and here comes my own snobbery) I would never want to date a woman who would allow herself to be chatted up in a bar, however posh it might be.
This is fun! Hee hee. I do love being obstructive and unhelpful.
1. I met my honey through Yahoo Personals. No kidding!
2. I wrote to him first because it was HIS personal ad.
3. We talked about the Jewish Holocaust. Not very uplifting but stimulating. I had been dating brainless guys before then and David was a complete RELIEF!!!
Post a Yahoo ad?
You say "This is fun! Hee hee. I do love being obstructive and unhelpful."
lol I know. And there we have it. Therein lies the absence of any real, existing problem in the way you like to describe.
By the way, I had meant taking someone to dinner at a restaurant, not cook for her at home on the first date! Unlikely anyone respectable would accept that.
Hi, Katherine.
Hoorah for Yahoo personals! You are both truly wonderful people so they certainly got it right that time.
And talking about something heavy and serious is much preferable than "so what music do you like?".
Lynn: regrettably I don't have enough time in the evenings to go out to a restaurant; more's the pity.
Though Joy and I socialise in restaurants, but that's on lunchtimes.
And the dating problem is real, I just need to hide behind the silly "Dive" persona to get up the courage to talk about it.
First, you ARE a catch, and the woman who "catches" you will be a lucky woman for sure.
1) we met in college because we had mutual friends, mutual friends who didn't think we'd last 6 weeks
2) I don't remember either approaching. We just kind of started talking one day
3) I don't remember this part either. It was kind of like running into each other one day and deciding to go out to a movie, and that was that.
Ah … mutual friends, Robyn.
Your mutual friends made a much better job of it than mine!
Thank you for the compliment but I have a feeling every woman I meet has already been inoculated against "catching" me. Hee hee.
Dive, I find myself in a similar situation, fading years and little time. I have tried the on line thing, the singles thing, the "oh, I know someone for you" thing and it always turns out badly. Unless of course you just want to get laid. That's easy, really not much effort involved. I sowed my oats and have been married twice (one I really choose not to count as it only lasted 7 months before I found an online add of his-His shit was on the lawn within 2 hours of that discovery) That was 2.5 years ago and I have not been on a date nor really been interested since. Still having a child at home who needs my attention and a firm hand, I have limited time to even consider trying to find someone. It boils down to 4 days a month as I am not interested in finding him a new daddy and don't want someone to be all that involved. I guess I am resigned at this point to being alone for a while longer. After that, I will be asking for some advise too. Sorry I can be of any help.
Hi, Prudence.
I've not tried the online thing as it seems to be for "dating" rather than finding a life partner.
We don't have the "singles" thing here, unfortunately, otherwise I might try it.
And yes, the "I know someone for you" is always a disaster. There is never so much damage done as that done by people who think they are doing the right thing.
I've never had casual sex and the thought of "getting laid" appalls me. "Dating" as most people seem to know it these days would disgust me.
Getting "involved" with someone worthwhile does seem to get harder with age. I hope when you are ready to look for someone you have better luck than I've had.
You are always a tremendous help (and you know it).
Dear Dave
Please,could I try to tell a story? Only a funny story.
"A man who was feeling him alone,
wanted to have a relationship with
a woman. So,he wrote an announcement on a newspaper.
He has received 500 hundred answers
" Come here and take mine "....
Sorry for my bad english
Oh, hee hee hee!
You certainly know how to cheer me up, anon!
Thank you for that.
I'm going to answer all three together:
We met at a dinner on the beach evening - a very hot evening. After dinner, MB lit a cigarette and so did I but because we were the only smokers, we walked to the water's edge and paddled and talked and SMOKED. I went to the dinner because my friend John thought I needed to meet some new people - I hadn't been on a date for 3 years! He asked MB if he could bring me along and MB rang me up and after a chatty conversation with him urging me to come along, I went. His being an architect interested me and we had plenty to talk about; work, plans, dreams, kids, pets etc. He went for a swim and in his swimmers he is rather a handsome specimen! I noticed but at first I thought he was gay because he was so well-mannered.
The important thing was follow up. Most guys make the mistake of waiting too long. MB rang me the next day and said "when can I see you again?". He repeated that day after day so there was no question in my mind that he was very interested. Girls respond to overwhelming attention you know. So, if she shows even the slightest interest, follow up. Let her decide on the when and where and how and you just bloody well fit in with her for the first date, whether you have to take a pill for the inevitable headache you might get by staying up a bit later than usual. Sometimes flexibility is the key, at least initially.
Flowers help too! Buy her flowers, a lovely bunch, every week. Girls love flowers.
For you, I'd hang out around the Sushi shop a bit longer to see who else is eating Sushi at lunchtime, regularly. You might find your match made in heaven. Either that or your favourite bookstore in Norwich. Single women read a lot. LOL
The other thing about MB that interested me was that he wasn't interested in someone half his age. He responded to mature, intelligent women and has many women friends who fall into this category. Have you been looking for a 50 year old or a 20 year old? OK, I'm a bit younger but not a whole generation.
Good luck dear. Don't ever give up!
Anonymous, that was funny.
Dive,
I know that yesterday I said I wasn't going to give any advice because I'm grossly unqualified to speak on this subject. But, none of the rest of your panel of trusted advisors felt compelled to lay out their qualifications. So, I figured, what the hell...at least you've been warned to ignore everything I say.
That said, I say you forget this whole "I have to be in bed by 9 or I'll wake up with a headache" business. Love is pain, friend.
You can sacrifice one night a week to have dinner with a lovely lady. (I hate that phrase, lovely lady. I don't know why I typed it. It just sounds so smarmy.) Sure, you'll wake up miserable the next day. But, be honest, even when you wake up feeling great, all it takes is one crazy git to jump in front of your train and fuck up the whole morning anyway. What's a little headache?
Mme: Thank you once again for the encouragement. That's great advice and a lovely story of how the two of you met.
I know women like overwhelming attention but I've not yet reached the stage where I can call one the next day.
And flowers give me hay fever. Hee hee.
The sushi shop is way too crowded to even see any women, let alone talk to them, though I do hang around my favourite bookshops for hours every week, but I can't say I've ever noticed any single women hanging around.
As for youngsters: they are decorative but the effect is always spoiled when they open their mouths. I am looking for someone who can remember buying Beatles singles as they came out.
T: That's what I needed: perspective. Yup; what's a little headache compared with the rest of the crap I put up with? Hee hee.
If I could find a "lovely lady" I would invite her out to dinner, believe me.
Your panel has written some very interesting things.
I am sure this has been addressed in past posts, but do you truly like where you live? I admire you for making that commute every day, but how you do it is beyond me.
Hi, Cali!
If you ever break enough limbs to be stuck in bed with a laptop for long enough to read my archives you'll find I live in one of the most beautiful places in the world; the Norfolk Broads. My pretty little village is nestled in the heart of a region of rivers and lakes and when I get home from my hectic rat-race days in London I can sit here and not hear a single sound other than birdsong and the rustling of leaves.
No planes, no cars, no people … bliss.
This is my own Heaven and I treasure it.
Right now, the sun is going down behind the trees in my back garden and everything is still and peaceful.
In an hour or so I'll be able to go stand outside and let the bats flit around my head. I love that.
The commute is soul destroying but getting home here makes it all worthwhile.
Thanks for asking.
Yep, stole my veggie pizza online. There was a girl in the chatroom who worked for a pizza parlour in the US. So I asked her to dish out some pizzas and people started asking for their faves. I shouted out mine. When she handed them out somebody swooped in and grabbed mine! (Yes, cyberspace can be a weird fun place.) It was the only way he could have gotten my attention :D But true to Jerry Maguire fashion, he had me at 'Hello' - that's when we started voice chatting and I fell in love with his voice and accent. Hee hee.
That's a truly weird story, Joy.
I've never been to any kind of chatroom (for a start, we are banned from them in my job), nor have I seen Jerry Maguire but I can understand you falling for Thom's voice.
Thank you for answering. I do understand not wanting to leave a place you absolutely love. You are most fortunate to have found your heaven. Here's hoping your angel to share it with will arrive soon!
What a sweet thought, Anon. Thank you.
Now I'm off to bed to see if I can dream up that Angel.
Oh dear. Life prohibits me to leave the long detailed comments I so enjoy flopping out at you! I loved everyone else's though! Maybe I'll get back to you on the subject later. :) I've gotta run........Life can get so in the way of blogging sometimes-baha.
Well, dear Dive...you already know Bing and my story. We met as college dorm mates. She was smitten from hello (sorry to sound like a braggart, but the truth is the truth) while I waited TWENTY NINE years to let her into my heart. I am pitifully slow and was way too into bad girls and boys at the time to realize that I had a diamond sitting right next to me.
All the other women and men that I dated, I either met in bars or in totally odd circumstances (a library, a deli, a grocery store line.)
I think that you should hit the book stores. Avoid the women looking at romances or best sellers. Stand by the literature section and see who floats by. If they are holding a book that is decent, say, "Oh, I've read that (um..make sure you HAVE read it or you will end up making her think you are either a liar or stalker) and it is so worth it" or some other thing. If she responds, you might follow up or not, depending on how badly your knees are shaking. And stop in regularly. That is the only way you can meet the regulars. Once you run into someone several times, you will have fodder for conversation. ("So, did you like the William Faulkner? Wasn't that book on famous cathedrals stunning?"...you get the picture.)
Or you could come visit the prairie and I could introduce you to my good friend, Kate. She does have a teenaged son, though. And um...okay ..one very nicely behaved pooch. But, she has never been married and she loves music....
Dive, Anon 7:31 was me! Sorry. I don't know what went wrong.
Sweet dreams!!!
Just a thought here. There is no reason in the world why some lovely lass cannot venture out to see you on your home court.
Many years ago I places an ad in the singles column. My plan was to find someone to attend ice hockey games with me. (Annnnnnnnnd to get naked with me.) lol I probably got 50 replies. One in particular got my attention and we agreed to meet sight unseen at a pub called the "Classic Car Company." (A pub with a half a dozen old cars all restored in the bar." As I left to meet her my car battery was dead. I quickly got it started and waited at the pub for an hour before the bartender asked it my name was "Mark." He then said that my date's car battery was dead but she would be there in 30 minutes. "Yeah Right!" I told myself. 30 minutes later she arrived. We have been married for over 20 years. Keep your attitude positive. I believe in you.
1. I met my boobalinks at work. We worked together at a blindness agency in Philadelphia.
2. He made a prank phone call to me from his office.
3. I kept turning him down. I was literally too busy to meet up with him. Twenty-three years later that is why he kept pursuing me. I fell in love when he started tearing up during "Terms of Endearment". He says he fell in love when I cursed out the refs at a Sixers/Celtics basketball game.
First the preamble, then my point: I need lots of foreplay when it comes to public confessions.
Only some of the following is contained in my passport, but all of it is 99.9% true: I am forty-six, of average height for someone of southern European extraction, genitally heterosexual, and neither as ugly as sin nor as gobsmackingly gorgeous as the fistful of women who might, in the right darkened corner or side-street, lead me to commit one. I’m also not unintelligent, not short of means, and not without a sense of humour. Hell, I can even poke fun at myself - mercilessly at times - and still come out smelling better than a perfumed Pepé Le Pew! I also hold several diplomas and degrees from the School of Love and Other Bruisers - which nevertheless regards me as one of its less illustrious alumni. (Oh, did I mention I have been more or less single and a sole householder for the past seven years?)
Moving on…
I have had a number of good and bad relationships, ranging from one-night stands (more bad than good) to a sixteen-year marriage (more good than bad). A few of them I now regret, but none of them were ever worse than my worst moments alone – of which, over the past few years, there have been more than I care to recall.
Moving on…
Yesterday I had a very pleasant, very chatty lunch with a certain young woman, J, who is in her early twenties, androgynously attractive, awesomely intelligent, an extraordinary writer, a Croatian national, gainfully employed, multilingual, single, a polymath of sorts, and, last but not least, openly bisexual. Some of these attributes tick my boxes, some don't. The remainder are still under review. (I should also add that she is the ex-lover of a close friend and young enough to be my daughter.)
In short, there are, in my eyes, at least as many reasons why I should NOT fancy this girl as reasons why I SHOULD. On the other hand, I have no plans (at this stage) to seduce her; or (which might be more fun) to allow her to seduce me. If I were a score younger, things would be utterly different. I'd probably be cavorting with her in a rumpled bed at this point, rather than writing about her in a tell-all blog response.
Moving on…
If, in view of all the factors itemised above, I had decided there was no future in any sort of relationship between this remarkable young girl and myself, I would almost certainly have declined her invitation to lunch yesterday - and missed out on having a wonderful time! Whether our friendship remains platonic is yet to be seen, but I do think there is every chance it will remain as enjoyable as it has been to date because neither of us is jumping the gun, as it were, by wondering when, where, or under what circumstances we will eventually jump EACH OTHER. It’s a possibility, sure, but not a preoccupation, or obsession, for either of us. This, to me, seems the best way to establish the kind of ease and trust which might eventually lead to something more intimate and long-term. In the meantime, ease and trust are sufficient in themselves.
Moving on…
The keys are: sincerity, patience, attentiveness, tact, humour, confidence, and openness. I'm sure you have most of these at home, Dive, even if one or two of them need to be rescued from a rusty old tin in the shed. ;)
I say you get your ass to Nebraska and meet Maria's Kate.
Stop by my neck of the woods on your way and my med student friends and I will tell you the stories we don't dare write about in our blogs. You'll laugh until you cry.
see i told you that you need a slap.
then again if you took dating advice from someone who was once hopelessly devoted to voldemort its a forgone conclusion you need one.
Whooee! You guys have sure ben busy while I was asleep.
Shan: Don't worry; I have more than enough long detailed comments to cope with as it is, thank you.
Maria: I do indeed know The Ballad of Bing and Maria (at least those parts of it you let us know) and it is one of the great love stories.
I still get all emotional whenever Ventura Highway comes on my iTunes and imagine sitting on your back porch playing it with Bing while the two of you sing.
Sigh.
As for the bookstores; please see today's post.
Your friend Kate is safe from me until her son moves out and her dog dies and she moves to England.
Hi, Cali.
I'm glad it was you; it was such a lovely thought.
Mark: Now that's a truly awesome way to meet!
Sounds like a great bar, too.
Neetzy: Terms of Endearment? Brr!
Hee hee.
Lucio: I wish you luck with her, but don't be disappointed if things stay platonic. I have a few younger "girlfriends" in their teens and twenties that will definitely remain platonic.
We flirt outrageously, shop together, drink together, go out to restaurants and generally hang out. We will happily walk along arm in arm and do the smoochies thing when we meet and part but it will never go any further.
When they "grow up" I want them to still be my friends and not hate me for being creepy.
I think the only thing I still need to dig out from the rusty old tin in the shed is something that tells me when a woman actually wants more than friendship; I never dare ask so I never find out.
T: Kate's safe from me, though I'd love to hang out with you and the other med students and hear gross tales. Hee hee.
Kate: I've had a slap. Now I want a woman.
Amazingly, I'm in an almost identical "relationship" with two other young women! And would be more than happy for ALL of them to remain entirely platonic. As I said, "ease and trust are sufficient in themselves". It makes for a lot gratification (none of it physical, of course), but very little sense of being obligated to be or do anything other than what I actually want to be and do. (Indeed, I think I' beginning to like it this way!)
You, I know, are looking for something more - which I hope you find, and find soon. Good luck!
Thanks, Lucio.
Girls can be great fun but I'm now looking for someone I can spend the rest of my days with and she really needs to be my age.
I'm always the last one to get my two cents in here,dive.
I approached my wife first and after fifty or so tries at it she finally caved in and let me take a look at her.
Rich: Little wonder you are such an incurable romantic. I must learn that persistence pays.
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