We interrupt the monstrously self-indulgent Dive retrospective to respond to a comment from Maria that almost made me miss my train this morning.
After yesterday's bout of splattery logorrhoea, Maria wrote:
"I love your blog because I always come away with new little phrases to shock my family.
And, since you are going on about words, I have run across a few in my Harry Potter readings to my daughter that I find interesting and maybe you could enlighten me?
The term "bloke" for a man? Where does that come from?
A queue? That is a line?
Snogging? Is that like what we Amuricans call "sucking face"? Because I think snogging sounds just a little more risque and sloppy.
Harry and his bloke friends (when they aren't snogging or in a queue) often use the word "reckon" when they speak to each other. As in "I reckon we should tell them we are running late..."
Now, reckon, as Americans use it is kind of a redneck slang....
So, care to enlighten this wee widget of a woman? Or we could just go right to the snogging...
But..even the word "snogging" just comes out of me with a raised eyebrow. Makes me feel so royally and haughtily naughty.
As if I were not feeling a sense of normalcy and calm....
(Sorry, it just slipped...I HAD to say it.)"
Hee hee. I can forgive "normalcy" when used with such delicious sarcasm, Maria.
Hokay …
So at ten to five this morning when I checked my comments, this one sent me hurtling downstairs (still moist from the shower, ladies … ick!) to rifle my OED for the derivation of the word "bloke".
The OED, by the way (for the benefit of my dear readers in the colonies) is the Oxford English Dictionary; the definitive repository of English (as opposed to American English, for which you have the esteemed Mister Noah Webster).
Digression time:
I have a great deal of respect for old Noah. He made an admirable attempt to render the horrifically complex and arcane juggernaut that is the English language more easily comprehensible to children and to the huddled masses of non-English speaking immigrants yearning to be free.
Inevitably he was forced to simplify spellings and - here's the bit that always makes me shudder - to standardise (or standardize as he would have it) suffixes.
It is this last which has just obliged Blogger to put a red line under the correct spelling and leave Webster's abomination unscathed and my teeth gnashing.
This simplification and standardisation of suffixes - as ranted about in yesterday's polemic - has deprived Americans of a great part of the essential beauty and poetry of the English language as well as the ability to look at a word and to surmise from its Greek, Latin, French, Norse or Germanic - or other - structure, its underlying meaning.
And "color" (sorry, I had to shudder again) is not a word; it is a spelling mistake.
While I hate to appear pompous and patronising (HA! You know I LOVE IT! … and that's "patronising", NOT "patronizing", he patronised), I feel that these days, Webster's simplified spellings should be confined to teaching young children and non-English speaking immigrants, and that - once they have achieved a decent grasp of the basics - they should then advance to the correct spellings and meanings (much as Japanese children - and Japanese students such as myself - are first taught using the phonetic alphabets of ひらがな and カタカナ before moving on to the complex and beautiful Kanji which show the true meanings and concepts of what is being written).
An unfortunate consequence of US "Websterisms" (Websterizmz?") is the natural tendency of the English to speak slowly and clearly to those who use the simplified spellings, and sometimes to draw them little pictures, too.
Sassy's going to slap me around the head with her Masters Degree for that one but regrettably it is true; we do tend to equate simplified spelling with simple minds.
Getting back to Maria's comment, I am so glad she reads Harry Potter with Liv; introducing children to books is probably the best thing anyone could possibly do for them.
And whilst I've never read the Potter books I confess to enjoying the movies, if only for the delicious sight of so many Brit thesps gleefully hamming it up.
Rowling is smart enough to use subliminal linguistic messages in the naming of her characters, such as Draco Malfoy … "Draco" being Greek for "dragon" and also having the meaning "harsh and cruel" from the "draconian" laws laid down by the aptly named Draco in Greece around 620BC, and "Mal" from the French for "bad".
Tolkien was the master of this, being a professor of Middle English and a scholar of Middle and Old English, Saxon, Norse and Icelandic, enabling him to use the same subliminal messages in a far more complex and subtle way.
Of course, subsequent "fantasy" writers, lacking his linguistic facility have made a mockery of this art. Thankfully we have Douglas Adams to deflate them and he parodied their ignorance so brilliantly in the Hitch-hiker books where we discover that the Earth was created by an old bearded man with the splendid monicker of Slartibartfast.
So …
"Bloke"
Originally from the "Shelta", which the OED tells me is an ancient and secret language used by Irish and Welsh tinkers and Gypsies, based on altered Irish and Gaelic words.
Basically it has come to mean an ordinary, decent working man.
If you're not working class, you're not a "proper bloke"; you're a git and a tosser (excuse me, I'm a proudly proletarian Marxist and class warrior).
"Blokey" and "bloke-ish" are also used to describe typically working class behaviour, such as watching football and drinking beer and swearing.
"Snogging" is indeed "sucking face" as you so piquantly put it, Maria.
Considered slightly derogatory: nice people kiss; slags and teenagers snog.
It is very much Harry Potter's age group - the chlamydia generation - who use the word, binge-drinking themselves into a stupor before glomming on to one another's faces and jamming tongues down throats with all the subtlety of the "face hugger" out of the Alien movies.
People our age (yikes) should stick to kissing.
I was raised in a more innocent age of crap sci-fi movies like "Amazon Women On The Moon" where a crew of middle-aged men would land on a planet populated solely by unfeasibly pretty nineteen-year-old girls with huge blonde hair, silver micro-skirts and boobs like Sabrina (you remember her? The fifties starlet who looked like she'd been shot in the back with a couple of guided missiles), who said such things as "Tell me more about this Earth custom you call "kissing"" … So much nicer than snogging.
"Reckon" is from tallying up; deducing numbers, and has come to mean roughly the same as "estimate" or "guess", I reckon.
And "Queue" is indeed a line, Maria.
From the Latin "cauda" (tail), via the French usage as a plait of hair.
Queueing is an essentially English pastime. If we're not queueing for something, then we are moaning about the weather or taking tea with the Queen.
This has been a public service announcement on behalf of patronising Brits.
23 comments:
Bloke is ours, I don't care where it came from. No Englishman could ever aspire to be a bloke.
Snogging you can keep. It sounds like you've dirtied the blankets in an unpleasant way.
Queue - To queue in an orderly fashion is un australian. we don't queue we line up and bitch about the f ing queue and then boycott the place till it goes out of business.
Ever seen the yearly grace brothers sales on tv? No? No queueing (?) politely there, its every fat desparate middle class shopping sheila for themsleves and if you happen to trip stiff biscuits.
But bloke is definately one of ours.
Ah, we transported all our Irish and Welsh tinkers to Botany Bay, Kate, so you're quite right to claim "bloke".
Snogging sucks (ew!).
Queueing sucks, too. But it beats rioting so I'll keep at it.
Riots - something else we do here.
Eureka, Bathurst, Cronulla, the after Christmas salers and my prospective place of employment is currently under siege by teenagers who have taken over the joint.
Tell 'em not to Bogart it but to pass it over to you (sigh … showing my age with sixties drug references).
What is a slag?
Yikes, Robyn!
Slag is an extremely derogatory term for a brain-dead teenage girl who leaves a trail of STD as she sleeps with anything and everything that moves.
Thanks Dive, I love this post.
I'm going to make a point of proudly using a word such as 'colour', 'flavour' or 'organise' in any comment I make from now on!
It surprises me that you rate the OED - they lost my respect by having a policy of including any word that you can prove someone's written down somewhere.
And I can't believe that you claim working-class status, though. You've waaaaay too much taste, decorum, education and don't know as many swear words as Old K.
.. and I'm going to use the phrase 'stiff biscuits' in the office this afternoon - thanks Kate!
Thanks, Pea.
I like the OED for that very reason; I'm hoping to have my word "Knudsonesque" included in the next edition.
And remember; I started out as trailer trash, then slum-dweller. If anyone labels me middle class they'll discover a few words even Knudsen doesn't know!
Hee hee.
I reckon you're right Dive (see; also used as in 'think').
What a lovely post, enlightening the unenlightened she said pompously and in rapidly downward-sliding condescending speed. I love it all, this exploration of the English language. I'd better stop here otherwise Dive and i might be seen wrestling in an ungainly fashion on the ground for the coveted position of English Language Bore of the Year.
ADORE Robyn's "What is a slag?" LOL !! Liked even better Dive's quite accurate answer.
It's also, quite unrelatedly depending on your point of view, a pile of rubbish.
A slag heap; waste products derived from mining.
Hee hee, Lynn.
I rather think (or even reckon) that such linguistic pedants as ourselves would wrestle in a seemly rather than an ungainly fashion.
Perhaps we should try it in the bookshop …
Perhaps not …
Ah, slag-heaps. No longer simply mountains of mining waste but the shrieking, drunken, fornicating, chlamydia-drenched pavement detritus found outside English nightclubs in the early hours of the morning.
One of my favourite words, detritus.
The bookshop yes we could politely grapple and grab all over the floor, whilst apologising and excusing ourselves each time we receive a hit from the other. A well known British trait.
"Ouch!"
I say! Jolly good right hook, Lynn!
Robyn: If you don't post a photograph of yourself dressed like that the world will never forgive you. Hee hee.
I think snog sounds endearing!
But then again...kind of like a slobbery slimy kiss from a hog on your cheek!
LOL!
;)
A slag heap - where i work when we have a full house
Oh, this is a simply beautiful post, Dive. There is nothing more wonderful than having English as one's mother tongue to truly experience the subtleties of our language.
For us:
Bloke is a favourite word of M.B's but then he has some Irish ancestry.
Snogging is not one of our words; we're the wrong generation. We don't suck face either; like you, we kiss.
Queueing is something that other people do.
We occasionally reckon something might be up but only when we are speaking "Ocker". I'll make a note not to use it when I'm commenting on any US blogs.
Slag is someone you would definitely not want your son to marry.
Lynn: "chlamydia-drenched pavement" - yuk!
Dive: What is "Bogart it"? I'm assuming here it is a reference to Humphrey Bogart as in long-dead actor.
Love it!
Mme
Ame: A slobbery hog is about right. Ick.
Kate: Hee hee. And Ick again.
Mme: Thank you so much.
Kate has already staked Australia's natural claim to "bloke" so MB is fully justified in using it.
And kissing is nice.
As for slag; I much prefer the terms on the only decent Aussie show we get over here: Kath and Kim. Phrases such as "hornbag" are so delightful.
You will have to start an "Ocker" dictionary to enlighten us further.
And "Don't Bogart That Joint; Pass It Over Here" is an old Little Feat song referring - as you correctly surmise - to hanging on to a lit joint in much the same way as Bogart would always have a ciggie on the go but never actually smoke it.
Okay. Now I can read Harry to Liv and raise my eyebrow and sneer just a little when they speak of snogging.
As if butter wouldn't melt in my mouth, as if I reckon that I never stood in a queue snogging anyone in a slaggish way. Well, at least I wasn't snogging a bloke or even a git.
I be snogging me some gal lips.
Hey Dive. I feel there is an email needing to be sent and your name is on the sender box! Pity you didn't see Sky News just now, though they may repeat it. Interviewed a Genetics professor who, though science based, is campaigning for better English! Yay. He insists on correcting work for grammar, punctuation and vocab. Yay. He says, quite unbelievably to me, that the word late and such like is often written as 'l8' which is text-speak of course. Nu 2 u i no it is Dive. lol. Eek isn't it horrible i never use it. Anyway this WONDERFUL man is on our side! I do hope you can see the report at some time. He says a lot of tutors do not correct work BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE POPULAR. Oh the words which want to burst forth from my mouth right now, Dive, well, you can imagine. Anyway, had to tell you... LOL.
Here in Oz, she often goes like a 'rat up a drainpipe', when he takes 'the ferret for a run'. Some more educated types 'bang like a shit 'ouse door' and if you don't believe it's really happening y' can take a 'perv at this.' Don't ever try to come the 'raw prawn with me", or I'll think you're a 'bullshit artist', mate. No worries.
In Queensland it's possible to place the interrogative, "Ay?" at the end of each statement, in order to appear more authoritative. Further out-back in Queensland, the ending, "But..." can be placed instead of the "Ay?"
The more highly? educated Queenslanders can even, quite poetically, insert a combined "But - Ay?" at the end of any spoken phrase. They do it in a seemingly random way that would throw Henry Higgins into a giddy loop. Normally, southern Australians would run to hide their children and animals at the first hint of this cultural terror in case neither were ever going to be seen again.
When you come here, next, Dive, just bring a tape recorder old son; one that can't easily explode.
I'm with Ame, I like the word snog. Stop being squeamish, Dive!
Maria: Grab a hold of Bing and enjoy a good snog-fest with this bloke's blessing.
Lynn: Thank you for letting me know we are not alone (though horribly outnumbered).
A curse on fkng txtspk!
Ah, Monsieur B: the sweet, poetic cadences of the Southern Tongue.
sigh …
And I'm used to the interrogative; that strange little questioning uplift at the end of every sentence, as all of London's bar staff are Australian … Ay?
Pea? Me? Squeamish? hee hee
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